The Trident: VAT in the US? - The Trident

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VAT in the US? Some think it is inevitable

#1 User is offline   bajanempress 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:18 PM

Full Story here

Do ya'll think this will come to pass? Will it be the death knell for the US President who approves it? Is this the only way that the US can balance the budget?


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NEW YORK (Fortune) -- The gigantic deficits the Administration is projecting are appalling, and they provide a chilling look at our future: America is hurtling towards a fiscal trap that is forcing us into the only option we'll have to restore budgetary sanity: A Value-Added Tax.

Unfortunately, no one really wants to address it. Nancy Pelosi has spoken admiringly of a VAT, and on the Right, former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee wants the levy to replace the income tax. But so far, it's mainly a favorite of a cadre of economists at universities and think tanks. White House budget chief Peter Orszag recently dismissed it as an idea that's "popular with academics but not seriously considered by policy makers."


It's not an option Americans understand, or ever hear debated much. In fact, most folks probably never heard of it. And if they had, they probably wouldn't want it, since it's the bulwark of an economic system alien to the American model -- the social democratic economies of Europe.

But the sheer scale of the expected numbers makes it practically inevitable that the U.S. will soon adopt a big VAT. It's the only vehicle capable of raising the money to cover the gigantic projected increases in spending and deficits.

Briefly, a VAT resembles a sales tax passed in the end onto the consumer at the register. But the government collects most of the money during the stages of a product's manufacture. Since manufacturers are writing the checks, it's an extremely efficient, virtually fraud-free way to collect money.


But it's never gotten much support in the U.S. for two reasons. First, it's a regressive tax: Low-earning families pay a bigger portion of their incomes than the wealthy. And second, the VAT -- first introduced by a French civil servant in 1954 -- has fueled the rapid growth of government in France, Germany, and even Japan. In fact, no other country spends the kind of money we're planning to spend without a VAT. The numbers tell the story.
Why the deficit matters

In the President's 2011 budget report, the Office of Management and Budget forecasts that the deficit will decline from $1.6 trillion in 2010 to $1 trillion in 2020. But that $1 trillion is still an enormous 4.2% of Gross Domestic Product. And that's assuming 5% unemployment and decent growth rates.

No one argues that America can keep on that fiscal course. One dollar in seven will wind up paying interest on the debt, which will scare away overseas capital. "Foreign investors could dump our debt, causing a fiscal crisis and a disastrous rise in interest rates," says Brian Riedl, an economist at the conservative Heritage Foundation.

Here's the big problem: Government spending is projected at $5.7 trillion in 2020. Total tax receipts are expected to come in at $4.7 trillion, which creates the $1 trillion shortfall. But income tax receipts, by far the government's biggest source of revenue, are projected to reach just $2.3 trillion. Hence, erasing the deficit would require a 44% increase in income tax revenues to cover that $1 trillion deficit.

But even if tax rates rose 44%, tax receipts wouldn't increase nearly as much, since Americans would flee for tax shelters or retire early. "You can't get to rates high enough to increase receipts by almost half," says Riedl.

So how big would the new VAT need to be? The short answer is very. Raising the $1 trillion needed to cover the projected shortfall in 2020 would require a 7% tax on everything we consume.

But the VAT wouldn't be imposed on everything. It's inevitable that Congress would exempt staples such as food and clothing. As a result, the rate on everything else will need to start in double digits. And if the European experience is any guide, it will rise from there
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#2 User is offline   Solidus 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:23 PM

Well not like the Bajan system is the yard stick for anything, but ours was 15% and never moved. Through think and thin.

Will they get rid of some of the other more complicated taxes?
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#3 User is offline   bajanempress 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:38 PM

Yes but most places didn't start out at 15% either a lot of places stated out at 10% VAT or less. We started out at 15% wapax!
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#4 User is offline   Merr 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 10:00 PM

View PostSolidus, on Feb 8 2010, 08:23 PM, said:

Well not like the Bajan system is the yard stick for anything, but ours was 15% and never moved. Through think and thin.

Will they get rid of some of the other more complicated taxes?


Do I think they will need it yes, do I think they'll ever have it not really it's political murder.

Looking at this like traditional vat paid as a sales tax (altho the writer said other wise, I have had vat removed from items I buy from the EU states, so to me it's a sales tax)

The English vat has fluctuated, it went up in Jan but down a couple years ago, so it doesn't have to stay at that point, however the thing is every state and some counties have their own sales taxes and even when you shop in other states and online they expect you to pay state taxes during your state tax return

Anyway Americans will react VERY badly to this and no I don't expect that would remove other taxes which is the problem, if you in Chicago or Cali you are already paying 9-10.5% sales tax for state, VAT will be added onto that because it's a federal tax, states will NOT give up their tax because they run high deficits and they have lots of little specialty taxes (fast food, oil change, hotel stays etc) that they sneak in and help to make the budget, so for a state with a 10.5% sales tax, add a federal tax of say 10% you have 20.5% on the basic stuff, going up to as much as 25% for fast food, that would drive the voting public into a frothing mass, altho if they hide it there would be less of an issue over time.
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#5 User is offline   karibspices 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 12:36 AM

look what Owen gone and do... :o

I don't see it passing. Steve Forbes tried to run on the flat tax, that didn't take.

Sales and income taxes vary by cities and states, it would difficult to replace them without a significant contribution to the individual cities and states. And there'd be rioting in the streets if 15% were put on top what people pay now. I understand the merits of it, but you'd have to convince 300 million people that this is more necessary than drastically cutting gov't spending. I'd say most would first vote for the latter.
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#6 User is offline   Solidus 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 05:25 AM

Honestly if it was a choice between having the tax and not paying off the debt, for most people 7% won't kill.
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#7 User is offline   bajanempress 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 10:53 AM

You underestimate how the average American feels about taxes.

I mean so much is come out of one's paycheck that I understand the feeling now. When you make US $145K your take home is in the $85K range after social security, Medicare and federal taxes. If you got state and city taxes on top that you in potta. If you go up to 150K you in a new tax bracket more potta. To add 7% VAT. Would cause a revolt. Texas would secede and
Chuck Norris would be president of the country of TX.
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#8 User is offline   Solidus 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 10:56 AM

I lived there for an extended period of time, so I do know, but with a cost-benefit analysis, only one thing makes sense.

Lies! Norris's beard would be the president!
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#9 User is offline   nineball 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:24 AM

View Postbajanempress, on Feb 9 2010, 10:53 AM, said:

You underestimate how the average American feels about taxes.

I mean so much is come out of one's paycheck that I understand the feeling now. When you make US $145K your take home is in the $85K range after social security, Medicare and federal taxes. If you got state and city taxes on top that you in potta. If you go up to 150K you in a new tax bracket more potta. To add 7% VAT. Would cause a revolt. Texas would secede and
Chuck Norris would be president of the country of TX.



I would hope that if they introduce VAT, that some of the other taxes would be removed.


And Sol, ours has remained at 15%, but may change soon, according to David Commisong, that's one of the recommnedations of the IMF
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#10 User is online   Mauby 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:27 AM

From the sound of it nineball, looks like it's going up.
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#11 User is offline   Billy Kincaid 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:40 AM

View PostMingles, on Feb 9 2010, 11:27 AM, said:

From the sound of it nineball, looks like it's going up.

And it looks like I going OUT.
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#12 User is offline   Solidus 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:44 AM

I have heard rumors that it could be going up to 17%

However it has been stable for a really long time.
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#13 User is offline   nineball 

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 12:00 PM

The introduction of VAT in the US would be a huge undertaking tho.
That is a sure way to create jobs!!!!
De men put billions from the stimulus into flimsy projects, maybe they coudl have given some to the economists to draw up a model for the introduction.
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#14 User is offline   Merr 

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 07:39 PM

View Postbajanempress, on Feb 9 2010, 09:53 AM, said:

You underestimate how the average American feels about taxes.

I mean so much is come out of one's paycheck that I understand the feeling now. When you make US $145K your take home is in the $85K range after social security, Medicare and federal taxes. If you got state and city taxes on top that you in potta. If you go up to 150K you in a new tax bracket more potta. To add 7% VAT. Would cause a revolt. Texas would secede and
Chuck Norris would be president of the country of TX.


Yup, Americans will cut off their nose to spite their face when it comes to taxes and anything that they think will make then European <_<

Mo money mo problems, all week long I see the chicks on my moms forum taking about they massive tax returns, then I did my taxes :blink: I need a couple more kids :mellow:


View Postnineball, on Feb 9 2010, 10:24 AM, said:

I would hope that if they introduce VAT, that some of the other taxes would be removed.



LOL do something smart in the US, I pay 1% extra in sales tax that was supposed to remove property tax under a certain value it went to the ballots and got passed, then they did a review of property values and somehow in this down market all property values went up, then they capped the amount for the millionaires so they wouldn't have to pay for these lake side mansions they got :rolleyes:
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